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The comments contained herein are the sole opinions of the contributors, and should be used with appropriate consideration of possible errors of omission, commission, or lack of sufficient information.
Section Editor - AWAITING VOLUNTEER TO ORGANIZE AND COMBINE.
Section G - Rear Axle
Page 1
Subject: Differential Facts
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:36:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Hall
To: LARRY WRIGHT
CC: [Tigers List]
At 01:06 PM 7/24/96 EDT, you wrote:
... I know there was a question in there somewhere... oh yea!
The difference is that the English division of Dana Corp (Salsbury) used 7/16 bolts instead of 3/8 bolts used in the USA. To run the 2.88 gears on the American Posi's simply machine some 7/16 OD x 3/8 ID spacer tubes just slightly shorter than the thickness of the carrier flange. Done it several times. The Gleason is a worm and sector type posi, rated at 300 ft lbs of torque. Bad rating. Thats why they were pulled from the market. Kept breaking teath at the edge (clam shell failures due to local overstress conditions). I have one behind my late 302 with 2.88 gears & a T-5 with a low ratio overdrive. Works great, but this is a low milage car with only 4 or 5 autocrosses a year. I'll let you all know when it breaks.
Tom Hall, modtiger@engravers.com
STOA (Sunbeam Tiger Owners Association)
Subject: Rear end info
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:53:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charlie Nichols
To: [Tigers List]
I am doing some work on the Tiger rear end. A couple questions for the group. Wheel bearing: the bearing on there are 14130X. The 14130 are much easier to find. The X denotes a smaller chamfer on the edge against the axle stop. Will the 14130 work just as well or do I need the X version with the smaller chamfer.
It started out as a simple repacking job but all the bearing have pits in them. As long as I'm replacing the bearing how about a different ratio .
The question is can I set up the pinion depth and ring gear back lash myself. The Sept. 97 issue of 4-wheel and off-road has a pretty good pictorial on gear setup for the Dana 44. The 4-wheel drive crowd uses Dana 44's in Broncos, Jeeps, Scouts, etc.
The two methods I have seen for pinion depth are using a pinion depth tool to get the 2.625 + the marking on the end of the pinion. The other seems to be to use the setup on the old gears, (number on the pinion) and add or subtract shims to equal the numbers on the new pinion.
Plenty more details of course and some special tools but has anybody completed the setup and how much time did it take. Or maybe just pay the $150 and let the experts do it.
Reider Racing seems to have some pretty good prices. About $290 including new bearing, flange and the setup stuff ($150 for the gears). I found a used set for $120 but for $30 more I might as well have new. Any other suggestions for new parts.
Charlie Nichols CEJLNcar@aol.com
Subject: Rear End Color
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:36:30 -0800
From: Tom Hall
To: [Tigers List]
For those inquiring minds:
Glyptal 1201 Red Enamel (is) was produced by General Electric, use primarily as an electrical insulating material. Application was by brush, spray (with appropriate Thinner) flow or dipping. The most frequent use was dipping of transformer core & coil assemblies.
Other than the possible use by Salisbury division of Dana Corp. on the center castings of Tiger rear ends, the most practical use has been on the inside of high performance engines. I painted my ski boat engine over 28 years ago, and when it finally gave up with a cracked piston skirt last summer, there was absolutely no sludge buildup inside the motor. Just as clean as it was when assembled long ago. My quart of Glyptal, used on that motor is still in good condition after stirring and proper agitation. This is the kind of great product we un-knowingly lose in the name of the environment.
It was available from industrial suppliers as little as 5 years ago but the current EPA and air quality regulations probably preclude finding it anywhere in California.
Tom
Subject: Re: Rear axle color GRANGER
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:40:09 -0500
From: Doug Mallory
To:[Tigers List]
WW GRANGER also has Glyptol and it is cheaper than Eastwood.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Laifman To: Frank Marrone
Cc: [Tigers List][Tigers List]
Date: Thursday, February 26, 1998 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: Rear axle color
>Frank Marrone wrote:
>
>> At 04:28 PM 2/25/98 +0000, Steve Laifman wrote:
>> >The "paint" is definitely "Glyptol", and this material is available.
>> >
>>
>> Rustoleums' "Satin Redwood" color is also an excellent match to the rear
>> end center section color (maybe a superior match to the 30 year old color),
>> thanks to Chad for that tip. I ultimately did use the Gylptal from
>> Eastwood because I felt it would wear longer than the Rustoleum product.
>>
>> Frank Marrone
>
>Good choice, and thanks for the "correct" spelling, and the source. I haven't
>used the product since 1956, when it was on all the Atlas and Thor rocket
>motors produced at Rocketdyne. My memory isn't as long as it used to be, and
>my spell checker could care less. Although Rustoleum makes a fine paint
>product, it was my recollection that Glyptal was a polymer with a great
>tenacity and could endure harsh environments. The bottom line proof might be
>that my Tiger's rear end is 33 years old, and the "paint" is still good. Wish
>the same could be said for my own bottom.
>
>{8->
>
>Steve
>
>
>--
>Steve Laifman
Subject: Re: Dana 44 Questions...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:29:13 -0400
From: Doug Mallory
To: DrMayf
[Tigers List]
Subject: Re: Dana 44 Questions...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:29:13 -0400
From: Doug Mallory
To: DrMayf ,[Tigers List]
>Has anyone installed the Power Lock limited slip diffrential with the stock
>2.88:1 gears? What is required?
Yes,
> Any modifications to the limited slip?
It depends on the year of the limited slip. the early ones have larger holes in them for the 7/16 ring gear bolts. The new ones have 3/8 bolt holes and half to be drilled out. Make sure you get the 19 spline limited slip not the 32 spline.
Doug Mallory
Subject: RE: Dana 44 Questions...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:38:29 -0700
From: Norman C. Miller
To: [Tigers List]
The Depot is lucky to have a selection of UOS shim stock. Thank yous to Mr. G. Fallehy. How can he help?
Subject: Re: Rear differential
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:09:50 -0400
From: Barry Schonberger
Organization: University of Southern Indiana
To:
CC: [Tigers List]
Kendall also makes a posi additive that works just fine but the FORD stuff is the best.
Barry Kent Schonberger
Dean of Students
University of Southern Indiana
8600 University Blvd.
Evansville, IN 47712
(812) 464-1862
(812) 465-7021 FAX
BKSCHONB.UCS@SMTP.USI.EDU
Subject: Pinion Seal
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:41:35 -0700
From: Mike Sutter
To:[Tigers List]
Paul,
I replaced the pinion seal on my car the first week I owned it. Pep boys had the part in stock. As far as keeping the pinion from spinning while you try to remove the nut, try the parking brake. If you have no parking brake try a breaker bar and cheater pipe on the rear axle nut wedged onto the garage floor, they never come off. The drive flange came right off with a 2 jaw puller. I fabricated a thin set of jaws for the same puller that fit inside the lands of the splines. I used these thin jaws to pull the actual seal out of the axle housing. The rear end gear set-up was unaffected by the replacement of the seal. I'm sure you'll get much more info than you need on this small endeavor.
While you're under there, check your panhard rod bushings/mounting bracket, and record your rear end housing serial number, its stamped into the bottom of the gear case.
Have Fun,
Mike S.
Subject: RE: IRS for Sunbeams
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:14:00 -0500
From: Paul Burr
To:[Tigers List]
At 9:12 AM -0500 10/28/98, Waybright, Stephen wrote:
>Since I just recently committed >$3.5k to have Griggs Racing replicate the
>"one of a kind" Watts linkage setup used in Ken Mattice's Tiger, except with
>coil overs in place of the leafs, I guess I would have been interested in an
>independent option up to that much or less. Of course I had only intended to
>go up to $2k for the rear end before my emotions got the best of me (Don't
>tell my fiancee').
>
>Good luck to you on this and damn you if it works and I missed out on it!
>:-)
>
>Stephen Waybright
Anyone got a late Model Tbird/Cougar? They all came with IRS, and the 4 bolt wheel patern matches the Tiger. Might be interesting- they're more plentiful than Jags in the boneyard and probably a lot cheaper to buy. Get out the tape measure and report back!
Subject: Re: pain in the axle
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:04:45 -0500
From: Chris Richards
To: Scott Lampert
"tiger mail"[Tigers List]
Scott-
I removed mine yesterday. I was replacing my seals so I also had to remove the hub. What a "Bearcat"!!! A slide hammer will pull the bearing out of the axle housing if you have the four bolts removed. If you need to remove the hub; use a special hub puller. The puller I used only pulled on two of the four lugs. Use the one that it shows in the manual if you have access. Be sure to put the axle nut on untill it is flush with the end of the axle (put on with the castle to the inside). This will keep the axle's tip from expanding as the puller's center stud tightens inward. Put a good load on the puller (tighten it down tight but not enough to bend the hub). Next heat the hub, especially on the keyway aea, untill it shows color (dull red). Then hit the shaft of the puller with an good hammer. If it doesn't give then let it cool about 10 minutes. Encourage cooling of the long end (inside) of the axle shaft with an wet rag. After 10 minutes or so, then hit the end shaft of the puller again. If it won't give then let the whole thing cool and start over. I bent one of the four corners of one of my hubs. I was able to straighten it adequately with a followed machining of the brake drum surface. Sometimes the hub will "let loose" as it cools without any extra blows. I hope this helps and sorry it there are any sublimital metephorical messages hidden in the text.
Chris in Trinidad
> From: Scott Lampert
> To: tiger mail[Tigers List]
> Subject: pain in the axle
> Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 12:32 PM
>
> i'm trying to remove my rear axles to install dale's disc break upgrade.
> i have removed the nuts and bolts holding the back plate.
> i tryed the chain to the hub (held on with the lug nuts) and pulling
> trick i read on these pages, but had no luck. i just want to make sure
> that there is nothing more to remove.i guess the next thing is to get a
> slide hammer.any help would help.
> scott
> B9472628
Subject: Re: pain in the axle
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:37:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Armand & Lorie Ritchie
To: Scott Lampert
[Tigers List]
>i'm trying to remove my rear axles to install dale's disc break upgrade.
>i have removed the nuts and bolts holding the back plate.
>i tryed the chain to the hub (held on with the lug nuts) and pulling
>trick i read on these pages, but had no luck. i just want to make sure
>that there is nothing more to remove.i guess the next thing is to get a
>slide hammer.any help would help.
>scott
>B9472628
Do you have to remove the axles or just the hubs? The hubs come off easy with a hub puller that bolts onto the lug nuts and has a larger screw in the center that you tighten and then give a few raps with a large hammer. It worked on mine.
regards Armand
ritchie@mcn.org
Armand & Lorie Ritchie Subject: Re: pain in the axle
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:22:19 -0800
From: Tom Hall
To: Scott Lampert
CC: [Tigers List]
At 05:32 PM 11/24/98 +0000, you wrote:
>i'm trying to remove my rear axles to install dale's disc break upgrade.
>i have removed the nuts and bolts holding the back plate.
>i tryed the chain to the hub (held on with the lug nuts) and pulling
>trick i read on these pages, but had no luck. i just want to make sure
>that there is nothing more to remove.i guess the next thing is to get a
>slide hammer.any help would help.
>scott
>B9472628
The tool you need is a puller designed for the Dana type tapered axle. It has a set of 3 or preferably 4 bars which bolt to the lug nuts, and threaded center which aligns with the center of the axles. Start by removing the cotter pins and castelated nuts and washers. Reinstall the nut backwards, flush with the end of the axle. Install the puller and tighten against the axle/nut. The puller will have a hex on the outer end of the threaded center, and a hex hammer lever to tighten the hex. The typical operation requires you to tighten the center by hammering on the end of the lever using a 4 to 5 lb hammer. When it doesn't seem to tighten any more, remove the lever and strike the end of the center with the hammer. Repeat this tighten to rotate - hammer on end operation until the hub free's itself from the axle with a loud bang. The nut performs two functions, first it retains the hub, and second, it prevents the axle from collapsing at the cotter key hole as you hammer on the end. The first time you do this, you will be amazed at the amount of energy/force required to perform this operation.
Tom
Subject: Pulling rear axle
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:25:22 EST
From: Dave Johnson
To: Larry Wright CC: [Tigers List]
Larry
Dont fool around when pulling the hub from the rear axle. It very easy to bend the hub. Use the proper tool, an axle puller with four legs.
Another tip, thread a die on the end of the axle. Then when mushroom the end of the axle with the 5 lb precision adjustment tool, you can recut the threads with the die. I did't do that and spend over an hour with a thread chaser and file, recutting the threads on the end of the axle.
Also the die will hold the hub when it does separate. Don't be surprised at the loud bang when it comes loose. My mechanic says he has seen the hubs fly completely across a shop and make a hole against a wall.
Good luck
Dave
Subject: REAR HUB REMOVAL
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:29:04 -0700
From: David McDermott
To:
CC: [Tigers List]
Steve,
You are correct in that a well designed puller is better and causes less damage. I have disassembled perhaps a dozen Tiger rear axle assemblies over the years and found that a good puller works on about 80-90% of them with the assembly still on the car. However, in the case of the other 10-20% I have found another method that works. The really stuck hubs were usually on Tiger axle assemblies that came from the rust belt states. In those cases rather than ruining the axles I simply removed each of the axles along with the backing plate, hub, bearings etc. This is done by removing the four bolts that hold the backing plates to the axle housing. Then fit two nuts 180 degrees apart between the loose backing plate and the housing. Run two long smaller diameter bolts through two of the holes in the housing threaded through the nut, through the loose backing plate and then have the end of the bolt contact a solid point on the back of the hub. Then hold the nut and turn the bolt a half turn at a time on each side. The bolts then press out the complete axle, bearing, backing plate and hub still assembled. Then I take those two assemblies to a machine shop with the proper presses etc. They have a fixture that supports the back side of the hub and can apply a hydraulic press against the end of the axle. Even using this method in a couple of cases they had to also apply heat before the tapered axle separated from the hub. After that you can then slip off the backing plate, seal retainer and remove the old bearings etc. It sounds complicated but it really was easier for me and the machine shop did not charge very much to do their part. It also avoids the brute force methods, flying hubs and/or having the correct puller. I found it was the only way that worked for the really frozen on hubs. Of course you lose some of the "fun" of the pullers, hammers etc.
Anyway it works for me.
Dave McDermott
At 07:53 AM 1/22/1999 -0800, you wrote:
>Larry,
>
>Use a screw-type puller with bolt holes for the studs,
>instead of jaws, and put the nut on the shaft backwards to
>retain the end from mushrooming. This is how it's supposed
>to be done. You may want the axle on the car to counteract
>torque.
>
>The other methods are crude and could stretch your axle.
>Didn't your mother tell you that you could go blind if you
>yank on it?
>
>{9->
>
>--
>Steve Laifman
Subject: Re: REAR HUB REMOVAL
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:19:19 EST
From: Dr. Mayf
To: Dave McDermott ,
CC: [Tigers List]
Hello all.
I used to have trouble getting hubs off...no more. I made a purpose built puller from a)piece of flat 5 inch x 5 inch x 1 inch aluminum stock. Steel would work also. Drill four holes at 4 x 4.25 spacing with 7/16 oversize drill. b) Cold rolled bar stock 2 inches long drilled and tapped for stud thread size. c) 4 grade 8 7/16 bolts same thread as studs, of the appropriate length, approximately, but it could vary some. d) some flat washers, say about a dozen. I screw the cold rolled pieces onto the studs as far as can. Then put a washer under the head of the bolts, run them through the flat plate and screw them into the cold rolled pieces. Then put a piece of scrap between the end of the axle and the flat plate. Oh, and you need to loosen the axle nut so that there is about an 1/8 inch space between it and the flat axle washer. Tighten each grade 8 bolt using good shop practice (i.e. alternate). I hav never had a hub go betond 40 ft-lbs before it comes off.
You are now the recipients of a lifetime of hub removals. (I had a 1954 Kaiser well, actually two of them, and their rear axles are EXACTLY the same as the tigers except for the length of the housing and hub. They used a 5 bolt , bolt system). Same gear ratio, Dana 44, keyed hubs)
mayf
Subject: Re: Rear end gasket
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:40:19 EST
From: Dave Johnson
To: "edalsj"
CC: [Tigers List]
Rear end leaks coem from two sources
1. The cover gasket has failed, so but another from any
4x4 dealer who carries parts for a Dana 44.
2. The pinon seal has failed. The leak reveals itself
by the dark streak from the from on the pinon
back under the pumpkin.The original seal was a
joke. Ford designed a better seal made of rubber
that cures the problem.
See your FoMoCo man.
Subject: Re: Rear end question
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:04:05 -0500
From: Doug Mallory
To: "Tom M."
CC: [Tigers List]
CALUMETAIR@aol.com wrote:
> Will the stock unit suffice?
Yes, It is a Dana 44 the same as Jeep/ Scout
> Is there an "upgrade" differential that lends
> it'self to limited slip?
Yes, Locker, Air Locker, Power Lock with clutches, Gleason etc.
> Does the stock unit have limited slip?
Nope...
>
> My reading research years ago mentioned a real serious wheel hop problem with
> stock Tigers. Any common cure for this ?
1. Lift right foot.
2. install quad shocks
3. install traction bars
4. With stock tires you will get more blue smoke than wheel hop.
>
> I will have to replace tires and wheels too, so they are not a
> factor at this time.
I am running 13x7 mini stock wheels with 245 45 13 (I Think) BFG R1's for Auto-x
>
> Thanks a bunch,
Tom M. 1964, B382000257
Lansing, Illinois (Chicago suburb)
Subject: Re: Tiger Axles
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:59:36 EST
From: Jim Leach
To: [Tigers List]
I have not heard of an axle key failure on a Tiger before, but we use an unusual axle bearing that is different from the "off-the-shelf" version. My records show it to be a 14130-X and a 14276 cup. The dash-X bearing is wider and if the standard narrow bearing is (and can be) installed in its place, the axle shaft will travel within the differential housing from side to side. This is probably not the problem, but it is something that should be checked on Jeff's car.
Jim Leach,
Seattle
Subject: Re: Rear end question
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:09:46 -0800
From:
To: Mike Wood
CC: Tom M. ,
[Tigers List]
References: 1
Mike Wood wrote:
>
> Tom-
> As you are now aware, the Dana 44 is a fine rear end, probably overkill for
> the Tiger application (read: tons of unsprung weight). ..... while others, for
> whatever reason, like the stock 2:88s with a 60mph first gear!...
> Mike
Actually, Mike, I'll give you my reasons for liking the 2.88's over a lower ratio (higher numerical). While a 60 mph first is no fun, neither is the high revs in fourth you get with the higher numbers rear end gears.
The problem isn't the rear end ratio, it's the wrong first gear ratio. The Mk II wide ratio set, gives a very nice 50 mph first (wound way out) and lots of off-the-line torque, like a higher rear end would, but maintains a 72 mph at 3,000 rpm cruise.
The wide ratio gears, regardless of the name, are well and evenly spaced, and much better suited for daily driving. They fit right in the current gearbox, and are available new, or slightly used, for small bucks for big performance increase.
The limited slip that's really easy to use is the Dana 44, as it just bolts in (as these things go). The one issue you must watch is the source of the unit, and the rear end gears. If you want to keep stock, and you buy an American Dana 44, the bolt holes in the unit are smaller than the stock bolts for the 2.88 (but are the same as the 3.05's and up from American cars. I think the numbers are 5/16 holes versus 3/8 on the 2.88's. Anyway, you have to drill out the carrier holes to accommodate the right bolts. This is a machine shop job, but not difficult at all. A better solution is to get the lsd from a Jaguar, which already has the correct sized holes. If you ever wanted to go to the higher gears, a stepped bolt is available to bolt it right in.
My bottom line, IMHO: Jag Salisbury (Dana) LSD, which isn't different in any internals, or more expensive. Probably a little more work to locate. Keep the 2.88's. Go wide ratio on the tranny.
My 2 cents.
Steve
-- Steve Laifman
Subject:
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:49:28 -0600
From: Ray McCrary
To: tiger-owner@autox.team.net
CC: [Tigers List]
Hi Guys,
In case anyone cares, I have 13 sets of the 2.88 rear gear sets in the shop: $50 a set.
I take it that you guys enjoyed one of my Tiggers in the C&D TV piece?
Regards,
Ray "Mack" McCrary
Subject: Re: Tire Rolling Radius
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:55:14 -0800
From:
To: Bob Palmer
CC: James Barrett,
[Tigers List]
References: 1
Tigers,
With the talk about speedo calibration, I thought I'd dig up some of the "rolling diameter" given by tire companies. Now, these assume the wheel width is appropriate for the tire aspect ratio ( 98, 95, 70, 60, etc.) as the diameter will decrease if it's spread too far. Most are appropriate for the Tiger, in the moderate width ratios.
Per Mike Taylor (page 223):
Stock Original Tiger-
Tire Circumference 15.90x13 D (in.)= 23
Miles/rev = 0.001140413
Popularly used:
Tire Circumference 185/70R13 D (in.)= 23.2
Miles/rev = 0.00115033
Some handy formulae:
rpm= (mph)*(revmotor/revaxle)/((60min/hr)*(miles/tirerev))
mph=((revmotor/min)*(60 min/hr)*(Miles/tirerev))/(revmotor/revaxle)
(miles/tire revolution) = (3.14159*rolling diameter, inches)/(12*5280)
mph @ rpm = ((rpm*60)/(gear ratio/rear end ratio))*(3.14159*rolling diameter inches)/(12*5280)
This last formula can be used to calculate the (mph/1 rpm) for each gear. Then, just multiply this number times the rpm in any gear, and you've got the speed in that gear at that rpm.
For those not familiar with equation notation used in spread sheets:
Notation: "*" is 'multiply'
"/" is 'divide'
Procedure:
Always solve for the number within a set of parentheses "(12*5280)" before applying that result to the next operation. That's why you see "(( " multiple parentheses. There should be an equal number of ones facing one direction, as the other or the equation is incorrectly formatted.
These can be plugged into a spread sheet, with the proper cells referenced, and curves of the resultant speed vs rpm can be made. Pick your shift points by knowing your engine.
Steve
Steve Laifman
B9472289
Subject: Re: posi's
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 20:23:45 -0700
From:
To: Nick Kintner
CC: Chris Mottram
CC: [Tigers List]
References: 1
Nick,
If you like your 2.88's, and I do, the American version of the Dana 44 has smaller holes in the carrier that the ring gear bolts pass through. They need to be drilled out to the Tiger bolt size. Another fine option is to get a good used Jaguar Salisbury LSD. It is the same as the Dana, but the bolt holes are identical to that of the Tiger. It really is a 'bolt-in', as far as these kind of swap's go. If your gears are not worn, and they are in good contact now, you probably don't have to remove and re-space the pinion, as it is adjusted by hard steel spacer shims. Still a good idea to test contact before final assembly.
Steve
--
Steve Laifman
Subject: Re: Leaking rearend
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 00:20:03 EDT
From: Dave Johnson
To:
CC: [Tigers List]
Sorry about leaving the seal number out of my response.
I have one in my hot hands right now. Its a National # 5778.
I read about it in an old CAT tech tip years ago. Seems the English seal actually used leather and would dry out or rip causing leaks. The US seal is rubber and seals much better.
Yes the yoke come out but you don't have to open the rear end up.
Final tip. Use an oil gun that looks like a long necked squirt gun. Fill it with gear oil, remove the fill plug, and pump away. No runs, no drips, no errors. No swear words needed either.
Dave Johnson
Subject: Re: Transmission/Differentials
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:58:21 -0400
From: James Barrett
To: Brian Doll
CC: [Tigers List]
At 10:59 AM 6/25/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Tiger owners,
>
>I have a question....
>
>Is the Transmission and Differential different for the Tigers and
>Alpines... >
>Could I swap the Differential out of an alpine into a Tiger.. would it
>hold up, or would it spit the teeth off of the gears.? I figure that the
>Transmission is different...
>
>Thanks
Brian,
The Tiger rear is an English version of the Dana Spicer 44. I think they call it a Salisbery rear end or something like that. The Alpine rear is not a Spicer 44 it is a little bitty thing. I have an Alpine rear that blew the spider gears in a regular Alpine. The Transmissions are not even close.
Note that some of the old Jeeps ( such as the postal Jeep) have Dana 44 rears that are about an inch shorter than the Tiger and they have 11" drum brakes. Often the bolt pattern is 5X5 1/2. I have one under my Alpine. Just added Alpine spring seats and modigied the driveshaft to match the Jeep U joint connection.
The emergency brake is a real pain to connect up on the Jeep rear.
James Barrett Tiger II 351C and others
Subject: Re: help please
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 08:21:09 -0700
From:
To: James E. Pickard
CC: "Tiger's Den"[Tigers List]
References: 1
"James E. Pickard" wrote:
> We're going to pull the transmission and replace the gears with a wide
> ratio set and then restore the rear end to the original 2.88. The
> question is: can you do this without pulling the engine? We are
> planning on overhauling the clutch while we are in there. Again, do you
> have to pull the engine?
>>Jim Pickard
>>B9473298
Jim, I was considering the same 'operation' for a limited slip differential installation, and keeping the original 2:88 gears. At first, removing the entire rear axle looked like the only way, as the 'spare tire' well was very much in the way. At the very least the axles must be removed. However, in examining is further I have concluded that I could 'drop' the rear axle assembly by just undoing the rear spring hangers and letting the axle (firmly supported) rotate down along the radius of the front spring eye. Of course, there is a point where your tailpipes prevent further lowering (and make poor supports), so they must be removed if enough clearance is not obtained.
Since I am only changing the carrier, I probably don't have to worry about re-shimming the input for proper mesh, as it is good know, and there would unlikely be any change with just a carrier change. In your case, you would probably have to remove the drive shaft to get at the yoke, seals and shim stack.
I have NOT done this, so this is only a suggested possibility, not demonstrated by me. Maybe some has tried this?????
On the clutch, you can definitely change the clutch, flywheel, transmission, bell housing pieces without removing the engine. It does require support to the block. You do NOT have to drill holes in your firewall. The upper two tranny bolts can be removed with a wobbly-extension / socket (NOT A UNIVERSAL JOINT).
The other bolts can be reached normally. The transmission will also have to be disconnected from the bell housing, and a shortened length 'cut-off' combination wrench or a 'stubby' will do that job. The Rear transmission motor mount must also be removed. Better have some help here, or a very good transmission jack, as that thing weighs about 140 lbs.
Steve (1009 cars older than yours)
-- Steve Laifman
Subject: inquiry 081399m
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:18:04 -0400
From: Wright, Larry
To: "National Corporation (E-mail)"[Tigers List]
Lawrence R. Wright
Purchasing Analyst
Andrews Office Products Div. of USOP
larry.wright@usop.com (new)
Ph. 301.386.7923 Fx. 301.386.5333
I know a few of you expressed interest in the rear-axle bearing-cap-bolt torque specs "missing" from the service manual. Fortunately, I got a couple of answers -- and for once they didn't all contradict one another! :^)
Barry Schonberger got back first; I never seem to get through via e-mail but he got _right_ back to me from that voice-mail I left him this AM. He recommends 80-90 ft.-lbs. (and I recall some purists say that more accurately it's lb.-ft. anyway). Then I heard back from Dana; I had found their website & e-mail through the SEMA page that someone passed the address of along to the Tiger List a while back (that's at least runner-up in the Most Awkwardly Constructed Sentence of the Year contest). And they said:
> From: Zavrel, Gene
> The torque specifications for the beating cap bolts on a Dana
> 44 as found in a Sunbeam Tiger are 70 to 90 ft.-lbs. or 96 to
> 122 Newton-meters. I am assuming that you are referring to
> the bolts going through the bearing caps over the bearings
> that hold the differential case assembly. I know of no other
> bearing caps, so I presume that my assumption is correct.
Sounds like Barry is pickier; considering he's the one in the driver's seat at (high) speed, maybe you'd expect that. Well, with the new torque wrench I should be able to hit the narrower range. I'll stick to the 90 ft.-lb. as I don't think my arm is up to the 122 Newton-meters.
Subject: INQUIRY 081799c (13)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:09:50 -0400
From:Larry Wright
To: "National Corporation (E-mail)"[Tigers List]
"Underneath", installment #13
One night my rear-axle helper came by, we installed the pinion and its bearings, then the ring gears and limited-slip unit. The shim thicknesses had already been set-up on a previous visit. The outer pinion bearing, closest the driveshaft yoke, "slips" on to the pinion gear's shaft, but it's such a tight fit it really needs a press to install. We cheated. The pinion gear (inner bearing already installed) went into the freezer for a couple of weeks, got it cold so it would contract. Then we heated the outer bearing in the oven at low temperature (below 400 degrees to protect the metal) so it would expand. Then, we assembled everything before the temperatures could equalize. First time I'd used an oven mitt while working on the car. Everything popped right in. Then the ring gear and LSD bolted in; that's when we realized that the service manual did _not_ have the torque specs for the bearing cap bolts. Found out later it's 80-90 ft-lb. It has been recommended that I do not try doing the axle shafts until the housing is in the car; first, because the housing will weigh so much less while maneuvering it under the car if the shafts aren't in it, and second, all of the pulling and yanking while setting the end float is easier once the housing is securely attached to the car. OK, I took that at face value, I'll try it that way.
Got the rear springs in OK (I'm using a set of Dale's, remember). Checking whether bolts will slide into the mounts and both front & rear is a good idea; mine were all fouled a bit with undercoating I had put in, and/or other crud. A couple of minutes with rat-tail file cleaned up the openings fine; I didn't want to have the complication, once the holes were lined up, of undersized holes. Same thing was true of the springs themselves due to my sloppy application of the POR-15 coating around the spring eyes. Obviously, the fronts went in rather easy, as I could maneuver the entire spring to line up the holes. Once that was done, the rear bolts took longer. The shackle is effectively spring-loaded due to the rubber bushing at the 'top' bolt, and needs to move back a bit to line up; plus, for some reason, there is a bit of 'twist' to the spring,<1/ enough that you're trying to push the shackle back (screwdriver), spring up (heel of hand) and twist (big crescent wrench on leaves 6-8" along spring) all at same time. probably less than two hours, looked like a five-minute job first. i'd go faster but i'm still being extra-careful not shake car until jackstands are wider footprint. new springs, in addition clamps, have locating pin center, with nut below, right where axle housing has 'studs" projecting down from saddles. well, i hope they're exactly place. they came out, anyway.
The front wheel bearings are about ready so I can add the hub/rotor assemblies to the front suspension. The old races, you may remember, were marked up, so I drove them out with a punch. I figured the new ones would be a tight fit, so I decided to try the freezer trick again. The races chilled overnight, and I only took them out of the freezer one at a time to tap them into the hubs with the same punch (don't slip! don't want to scratch the surface!). Didn't have to heat the hubs in the oven. There's a notch in the hub to enable getting a punch on the backside to facilitate getting the races out, but no such help when getting the new ones back in. On both inner and outer races, they need to be driven _below_ a ledge for the bearing seals and/or dust cap, so you're perching the punch right on the edge of the race.
The bearings themselves were no big deal, just messy. I had access to two bearing packers, so I tried that first. However, the Tiger's wheel bearings have the inner race, the one against the spindle, integral with the bearing. Therefore, there's really no way to force grease in from the back, which is what a bearing packer does. There's a tiny space at the top and bottom of the bearing, but insufficient; made a mess, that's all. So, I packed them by hand as I was shown when I was a kid. One palmful of grease, hold the bearing in the other hand, force the grease between bearing and palm until it oozes out everywhere. Yuk!
The rest of the rear suspension should be easy, the rear brakes perhaps not so, and I'm still hoping for advise on the brake lines up front (see earlier installment).
Lawrence R. Wright
Purchasing Analyst
Andrews Office Products Div. of USOP
larry.wright@usop.com (new)
Ph. 301.386.7923 Fx. 301.386.5333
Subject: RE: INQUIRY 081799c (13)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:34:42 -0600
From: Theo Smit
To:Larry Wright
[Tigers List]
Larry,
When you're installing new front wheel bearing races, use the old ones as a drift.
Theo Smit
B382002705
-----Original Message-----
From:Larry Wright
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 7:10 AM
To: National Corporation (E-mail)
Subject: INQUIRY 081799c (13)
"Underneath", installment #13
(snip)
The front wheel bearings are about ready so I can add the hub/rotor assemblies to the front suspension. The old races, you may remember, were marked up, so I drove them out with a punch. I figured the new ones would be a tight fit, so I decided to try the freezer trick again. The races chilled overnight, and I only took them out of the freezer one at a time to tap them into the hubs with the same punch (don't slip! don't want to scratch the surface!). Didn't have to heat the hubs in the oven. There's a notch in the hub to enable getting a punch on the backside to facilitate getting the races out, but no such help when getting the new ones back in. On both inner and outer races, they need to be driven _below_ a ledge for the bearing seals and/or dust cap, so you're perching the punch right on the edge of the race. (snip)
Lawrence R. Wright
Purchasing Analyst
Andrews Office Products Div. of USOP
larry.wright@usop.com (new)
Ph. 301.386.7923 Fx. 301.386.5333
Subject: Re: Tiger rear axles...
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 18:28:40 -0400
From: Larry Paulick
To: Steve Laifman
CC: Doug Mallory
herbeam
tiger list[Tigers List]
References: 1 , 2
Had to replace my rear axle, because prior was bent. The old axle, and new axle from Rick at SS has 19 splines. Counted 2 times.
Larry
Subject: 091599c
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:10:51 -0600
From: "J&E" Steve Kenyon
To:[Tigers List]
larry
measure the distance on each side from the plug inside the diff to the axle housing flange. If it varies more than one eighth inch you may have the wrong carrier. What ratio was on the carrier and what ratio are you installing? The plug should move a little. Did you have to shim the carrier lots to get proper backlash?
steve kenyon
Subject: dana44
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:21:37 -0600
From: "J&E" Steve Kenyon
To:[Tigers List]
Timothy
I foung a good book listing diffs/splines/shaft dia's. It looks like only older 66-68 jeeps ft or rear list the right spline/dia. My searsh for side gears is not going well. The 4x4 shop says not avail separately. I am going to try chrysler today. Have not tried IH connection yet. List 1960 to 1968 scout/traveall with same spline/dia.
steve kenyon
Subject: inquiry 092099b (20)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:30:10 -0400
From: Larry Wright
To: "National Corporation (E-mail)"[Tigers List]
"Underneath", installment 17
Thanks to feedback from you Tiger Listers, I was ready to tackle the problem of the rear axle not going all of the way in. Friday night, I pulled the whole assembly out of the car. By myself. Don't try this at home, I'm not a professional. :^) Actually, other back a backache and a few small paint scratches on the axle housing, it wasn't that bad.
Saturday AM, I got to see the Tigers-in-progress of Larry Paulick and Wayne Pierzga (am I spelling your name right?) at a local body shop; I was impressed with what I saw. It was also the first time I've seen a restored Sunbeam shell with nothing on it but paint.
Then, back home in time for my rear-axle helper to drop by. With use of the spreading tool, we had the diff back out in minutes. Yeah, you could see the problem right away. Inside, on the right side, there are the female splines the axle fits into; two sets, and they were misaligned. We must've messed them up during the 20 or so times we had the diff out while setting the shims -- and never thought to check. We loosened the 8 bolts that hold the whole assembly together, just a bit. Then we could wiggle and bang on the shafts until it all fit back together. Then we retightened the 8 bolts, with the axle shafts in place.
Then we could re-install the diff in the housing, and the housing in the car -- with time off to clean up after an incident involving a neighbor, a door and a shelf holding up a pan full of old oil. Ugh! Fortunately, a Tiger's rear suspension is pretty simple; we're only talking about 4 U-bolts and their 8 nuts, and the two lower shock volts. The Panhard rod was not yet installed. So, it really didn't take all that long.
Next was the end bearings on the rear axles. By this time, I'm finally, permanently on my own on this rear axle, so I'm feeling my way through the process. Greasing up the bearings themselves is messy, but not difficult. Just as well, as there's nothing in the service manual about it. Then I tapped in the outer races with a punch, working in a circle to keep them going straight. Well, that's not a process I can control well, so when I was done the axles were too tight, no movement at all. Well, remember the discussion last week about how, through those "buttons" in the diff, that pushing in one axle pushes out the other? Aha! So I installed the shims that were originally on the car, after cleaning them up (A wee bit of rust, I was afraid it might affect the settings); two thick and one thin on the left, one thick on the right. Over that went the thick spacer disc originally outboard of the drum-brake backing plate, and the 2nd one that came with the rear disc kit. No seals, no caliper brackets, and no Nylock nuts -- just some old nuts from the front sway bar I had laying around -- because I figured I'd be installing and removing all this more than a few times. Then, with everything tightened up, not too tight, I pounded inwards on the ends of both axles with a mallet (yeah, a nut on each axle to protect the threads). This forced, in each case, the opposite axle to press the outer race _outwards_ against the thick discs. Voila! End play.
Too much, I fear. I do not have a dial indicator and base, although I'm considering buying one. But it felt like too much (and should I run less than the six to eight 1/K's that the book recommends?). Well, on the left, I take out one thick shim and reassemble. Too tight, won't move. So, I swap out the thin one, and try 2 thick. End play again, I guess less, but enough that you can actually see it. I borrow a micrometer from my father-in-law and measure; the thin shim is 10 thousandths and the thick ones are all 30 thousandths. How the heck am I supposed to arrive at 6 to 8 of end play with those materials? Why not demand clearances in microns? And, so far, I have not heard of a source for the shims. Betcha making them would take forever. Oh, yes, with the one-axle pushing against the other, doesn't end play at one end affect the other?
BTW, this is with no gasket back there whatsoever. I'm planning on using Permatex in a thin film. But, where? It seems like every two pieces in the "stack" would need a gasket or Permatex, and that could really add up. Am I wrong? They only used one gasket per side originally, right? If so, where and why?
Also, I'm still thinking of adding a braided flex line to the ends of the rear brake system running into the calipers; I'll try a few more places locally where I can shove the appropriate parts under someone's nose. Otherwise, I might fit up the rear lines _rigid_, and I don't like that.
The handbrake lever worked out as I suggested in the last installment; I put it in a vise and crushed the part where the cable attaches then reworked it to still move freely where the part that bolts to the car slide between the two outer halves. Those are now sort of Z shaped, and the assembly now goes together. The cables, at the lever end of things, terminate in two long threaded rods, and these will not slide into the ferrules where the outer housing starts just as the cables exit the interior of the car. Therefor, I took it all out _again_ (no way to adjust this while bolted to the car), and ran down the nuts on those threaded rods, to pull them further away from the ferrule. It just clears in the handbrake-off position. I don't see how this could be used as a cable adjustment, but there's another one at the caliper end; I hope that's enough to cope with cable stretch. BTW, I didn't damage the paint on the lever while reshaping it as much as I feared.
Lawrence R. Wright, Purchasing Analyst
U S Office Products, Mid-Atlantic Division
Formerly Andrews Office Products
larry.wright@usop.com (new)
Ph. 301.386.7923 Fx. 301.386.5333
Subject: Re: inquiry 102199b (20.75)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:14:21 -0400
From: Jim Morrison
To: "National Corporation (E-mail)"[Tigers List],
Larry Wright
References: 1
Larry,
I just finished this same replacement. Two tricks I would recommend. I used a heavy chain with one end bolted to the pinion flange and the other wrapped around/bolted to the frame or suspension. All this is to keep the pinion from turning while undoing the nut on the pinion. The other is to heat the pinion nut. Mine would not come off until heated. Remember to torque it properly upon re-installation. Taking the old seal out is fairly straightforward. Stick a screwdriver/punch or some other stiff metal object into the hole and pry it out. Nothing inside to worry about except where the seal itself mounts. I used a little sealer around the new seal for good measure.
Jim Morrison
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Wright
To: National Corporation (E-mail)[Tigers List]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 7:39 AM
Subject: inquiry 102199b (20.75)
> "underneath", installment 20-3/4
>
> I still don't know what to do with either the fuel pump or
> differential leaks, but I thought it best to have a backup plan. Last
> night we placed an order with Sunbeam Specialties.
> First, I have a new pinion seal on the way, an air-freight (!)
> order for Friday. I'm guessing that there won't be a way to get the
> existing one to stop leaking (although I'd be very interested in any
> ideas!!!), so perhaps the alternative is to install a new one.
> That raises more questions. Primarily, how to get the old one
> out, and can it be done with the diff installed in the car? Any caveats
> about whatever is _behind_ the seal, and avoiding damaging any of it
> while pulling the seal? Any tricks to popping the new one in? I was
> thinking of sticking the new one in the freezer overnight to get it to
> shrink a bit, that has helped on other parts before. How about a smear
> of Permatex around the rim? And is this seal the primary, or even only,
> item keeping the oil in or are there other seals/gaskets I should be
> looking at?
> The fuel pump issue is a bit stickier. Apparently there is no
> "rebuild kit" that would enable replacing just the leaking gaskets; the
> recommendation was to pick up some gasket material from a hardware store
> and _make_ one. Ick! Especially those little ones that go behind the
> double-male threaded fitting where the fuel lines attach.
> Sorry again for all of the questions; TIA for any feedback.
>
> Lawrence R. Wright, Purchasing Analyst
> U S Office Products, Mid-Atlantic District
> Formerly Andrews Office Products
> larry.wright@usop.com (new)
> Ph. 301.386.7923 Fx. 301.386.5333
>
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